Ahimsawire Today: 'Most people on Earth these days are vegetarians–if not by choice, by necessity'

A chapter by Frauke Hertel from the book 'UTOPIA TODAY - REALITY TOMORROW - A vegetarian world'

Messageboards Constitutional debate Diplomatic exception

You have selected: New messages posted today, Day 12 Tolimonth 3 Year 57.

Posted by OldTimeActivist on 12-TM03-0057 12h15 CAT
Sorry guys, it’s not on. For those of us who risked our lives to ensure our children would never be expected to gnaw a bone, there is no way we are going back on the no-meat, no-fish law for anyone. Any foreign diplomats or other visitors coming to Ahimsa Prime know they will not be allowed to eat other animals while they are here. If they can’t deal with that, they should stay at home. After all, it’s not like you still have to be anywhere ‘in the flesh’ to get your work done.

Posted by Starchild on 12-TM03-0057 12h22 CAT
Personally, I subscribe to the no-meat, no-fish principle, but we cannot expect other civilisations to share our values. After all, they cater for our needs when we go to see them, so why should we not make allowances? Other people’s life choices don’t invalidate mine.

Posted by Netcynic on 12-TM03-0057 12h24 CAT
Nice display of moral relativism, Starchild.

Posted by EyeOpener on 12-TM03-0057 12h31 CAT
I don’t understand what all the fuss is about. Ever since the External Relations Coordinator floated the plan to make an exception for the delegation from Old Earth, you’ve all been up in arms, avoiding the real issue: on this brave new world of ours where only one citizen in five lives without products derived from animals, animals are still exploited. Four Ahimsa Primates out of five choose to ignore the fact that the dairy products, honey and leather they consume cannot be produced without cruelty to animals. Sometimes I wonder why Generation One ever bothered to leave Old Earth.

Posted by TheSpiritLives on 12-TM03-0057 12h48 CAT
As a follower of the path of the Cosmic Spirit, I am deeply concerned that some members of our community seem more interested in finding fault with each other than with working together to protect our fragile way of life. None of you surely would like to return to carrioncrazed cultures where veg*ns were, at best, tolerated? In a recent media release, the Exalted Matriarch reminds devotees that all those who protect the lives and well-being of others may aspire to Cosmicity, and that the consumption of dairy products and honey, the use of wool and leather do not in themselves imply cruelty. Stay united, Brothers and Sisters, and let the Spirit decide who is worthy.

Posted by BloodnGore on 12-TM03-0057 12h49 CAT
Nothing like a nice juicy steak to set you up for the day. You can find all the meat you want just so long as you know where to look, and I’m not talking about the vat-grown stuff either. And all you hypocrites know it.

Posted by OldTimeActivist on 12-TM03-0057 12h53 CAT
Hey, the troll is back. One species we might as well have left on Earth. Let’s concentrate on the issue at hand. Starchild and EyeOpener, I take it that you are second or third generation like our EXREL coordinator. Generation One would not even have dignified the suggestion with an answer. Still, I’d rather discuss this with you until the dome cracks than listen to Her Exaltedness over there telling me to shut up and go hug a tree. I did not just come here to avoid meat, I came here to build a sustainable, democratic society, as did the others. We believed in the rule of reason and respect for all beings, not in blind acceptance of the conventions with which we had been raised. Respect for others means that your own preferences sometimes have to take a back seat. That applies to all of us, including any visitors.

Posted by EyeOpener on 12-TM03-0057 12h56 CAT
Exceptions are simply the thin end of the wedge. Let’s not forget that many of these visitors are here to stay. We might end up with a significant meat-eating minority.

Posted by Anonymous on 12-TM03-0057 13h02 CAT
Nobody ever asks for MY opinion. I was BORN here but I can’t WAIT to get away, soon as I’m 18 I’ll LEAVE this dump and go to EARTH so I can hang out in MALLS and eat REAL burgers and wear cool clothes like they do in the holovids. And I won’t let ANYONE stop me.

Posted by EyeOpener on 12-TM03-0057 13h05 CAT
Nobody’s even going to TRY, Sweetie. In the meantime why don’t you get your TEETH filed to annoy your PARENTS, just like the OTHER teens.

Posted by EmbarrassedEarthling on 12-TM03-0057 13h06 CAT
I’m here on a study visit (working on a thesis comparing various approaches to space colonisation), so have been following this debate for a few weeks now. I would not presume to express an opinion but, if I may, I would like to contribute a few facts. Most people on Earth these days are vegetarians – if not by choice, by necessity. While animal products remain readily available in some of the richer areas, the average inhabitant of Earth at the dawn of the 22nd century can’t afford them. We all know how this situation came about, but if anybody wants to read up on the details, they may wish to consult Dr A Greengage’s excellent monograph “Loaves and Fishes: Feeding Nine Billion Mouths on a Barren World”. The veg*n argument was won several decades ago, by default rather than by choice. Any visitors claiming entitlement to a meat or fish-based diet are likely to be members of a wealthy elite hitherto unaffected by the food shortages. Anonymous, on closer inspection you may find that the holovids do not always project a realistic view of Earth. BTW, why is it referred to as ‘Old Earth’ here? Is there a new one?

Posted by OldTimeActivist on 12-TM03-0057 13h15 CAT
Meaning what, EmbarrassedEarthling? We might have saved ourselves the trouble? EyeOpener, lay off the kid.

Posted by CallipsoCommunicator9 on 12-TM03-0057 13h33 CAT
Greetings, fellow mammals, from Coolspray, son of Whitewave of the Dome Five Pod. This Communicator for the Cetacean Alliance for the Promotion of Sustainable Oceans wishes to remind Ahimsa Prime’s dominant species that its definition of compassion is debatable. Intercom, the Interspecies Conference on Compassion, has so far failed to formulate a definition to which all species can adhere. Many of us would argue that removal from our home planet was cruel, although unintentionally so. While we understand that, at the end of the terraforming process, our descendants may one day be able to leave the domes and roam free, the interim is as difficult to endure for us as it is for the other animal species who were brought here without prior consultation. To quote another example, many of us carnivores and piscivores feel that the ongoing experimentation aiming to interest us in plant-based diets is, at the very least, irritating, and in all likelihood detrimental to our health and well-being in the long run. Callipso is campaigning for the new interspecies communication modules to be made available to representatives of all imported species in the interest of a genuine evaluation of the Ahimsa Prime project to date and representative participation in the future decision-making process. Until such time as all species can speak for themselves, Callipso will aim to defend the interests of oppressed animal species by stating that we do not, intrinsically, oppose the Law of Nature, provided the balance is maintained and all actors benefit from a level playing field. While we salute the efforts of Ahimsa Prime’s dominant species to overcome this primitive arrangement and welcome the opportunity to develop a partnership and share the burden and the joys of this new world alike, many of us consume other animals ourselves and therefore acknowledge this need in others. However, we urge the dominant species here and on Earth to exercise relevant population controls and refrain from polluting our environment, over-exploiting our stocks and wasting life needlessly. In the interest of fair play we would also encourage our would-be predators to consume only what they, as individuals, can catch themselves, with their own bare hands. Good luck.

Posted by Netcynic on 12-TM03-0057 13h57 CAT
I can’t believe we actually left people behind so we could bring the dolphins. Did we really have to take them out of stasis before the oceans were ready? Before we get all huffy about a few off-worlders hoping for the occasional tuna salad, let’s remember that we feed each of the dolphins ten kilos of fish per day. OK, so we built an ark from which to recreate nature as we knew it, but surely we could have given ourselves a few hundred years? And did we really have to compound our mistake by giving these jokers commcubes? With lobbytalk plug-ins? I preferred them when they clicked and whistled. We still have so much to do. We just can’t afford to be bogged down by negotiations with our pets.

Posted by EmbarrassedEarthling on 12-TM03-0057 13h59 CAT
Sorry, OldTimeActivist, just logged off for a quick lunch. Meaning … we might have saved ourselves the trouble? Hardly. You have a clean world here, which appears to be run fairly and democratically. While its balance is still fragile and resources are limited, everybody eats and everybody is valued. You are way ahead of us in these respects alone. When the invention of a viable, affordable fusion drive opened up opportunities for space colonisation in 2027, the Flying Mahatma heading for the Alpha Centauri system was one of many arkships embodying humankind’s hope for a fresh start. Yet colonisation is a risky business. Ahimsa Prime has, so far, managed to avoid one of the major pitfalls threatening colonies founded primarily as large-scale intentional communities: the practicalities of daily existence. A shared ideal is an obvious pre-requisite for an intentional colony, but the exigencies of co-existence are such that this can never be enough. A society without a clearly defined decision-making process, rules and responsibilities is unlikely to get very far. Statistically, bickering and power struggles kill off as many colonies as famine, disease and accidents.

Posted by PragmaticAPrimate on 12-TM03-0057 14h02
Guys, please … this is all way off topic. We know from past experience that forbidding things doesn’t work unless you can enforce the interdiction. Of course, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. But at the end of the day, our attempts only play into the hands of the meat mob. Much as I regret having to agree with the likes of BloodnGore up there, he does have a point: we all know about the clandestine rabbit hatcheries, the smuggled steaks. Just imagine what it will be like once we leave the domes, and the meat mob can hide whole herds of cattle all over the planet. Trying to enforce an interdiction of the human consumption of meat was never going to work. So long as humans live alongside other animals, the temptation will always be there for those of us whose convictions are not firmly rooted – and who seem willing to go to surprising lengths to feed their habit. Remember that the descendants of the pioneer generation never signed up for this way of life. Remember that we receive increasing numbers of visitors. Remember that even some members of Generation One are asking if we need to maintain a life choice that, for some of them, was based on factors that do not apply on Ahimsa Prime, such as unsustainable production methods and unfair distribution of resources. And, of course, health scares linked to industrial farming practices. An exception for visitors is the least of our worries. We have to decide how we are going to keep our ideals alive throughout future generations of Alpha Primates, without cutting ourselves off from the rest of the universe, and ensure that the values of our society are rooted firmly enough not to be shaken by a misguided minority. Awareness campaigns? Commcubes for all animals? Compulsory holotrips to planets that breed humans for food?

Posted by Starchild on 12-TM03-0057 14h10 CAT
What a gruesome idea. We should teach future generations the beauty of our ideals, and not fear of the alternative.

Posted by LeonardoPrimarySchool on 12-TM03-0057 14h39 CAT
As one of the educators trying to raise our children in the spirit of our great Primian pioneers, may I remind you of the first article of our Constitution: “All animals are created free and equal in dignity and rights, and animals endowed with reason and conscience should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.” This clearly means that animals who can survive without hurting other animals should strive to do so. While some animals may not be physiologically or mentally equipped to go without meat, fish or insects, human beings certainly are. Noone will ever convince a shark to go veggie. We, however, take pride in the big brains with which members of the species Homo s. sapiens has elevated themselves above the rule of nature and pure instinct. We are able to identify and to change behaviour patterns that we recognise as unacceptable. An enlightened society cannot endorse a cruel, wasteful and unhealthy way of life, which in the case of Old Earth has also proved to be a major cause of pollution and hunger. This is one of the principles on which we have built our world, and while we are happy to welcome as many visitors as our planet can sustain, we do expect them to show due respect for our way of life while they are here.

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More Information/Quote:

Dr. Daniel Pauly: "In light of the time span considered here, I think the most important development for the oceans would be a device that could detect, amplify and transmit to us the emotions and fleeting, inarticulate "thoughts" of animals in such a form as to evoke analogous emotions and thoughts in human brains. This would first work with primates, then mammals in general, then the other vertebrates including fish. This would cause, obviously, a global revulsion at eating flesh of all kinds, and we would all become vegetarians"

From New Scientist Special Report issue 2578 18 November 2006 p. 50 /Dr. Daniel Pauly, Professor and Director, Fisheries Centre. Master (1974), Doctorate (1979) and 'Habilitation' (1985) in Fisheries Biology and Biological Oceanography (University of Kiel, Germany). Two books ("In a Perfect Ocean: fisheries and ecosystem in the North Atlantic". Island Press, 2003; and " Darwin's Fishes: an encyclopedia of ichthyology, ecology and evolution ." Cambridge University Press, 2004)

Source: 'UTOPIA TODAY - REALITY TOMORROW - A vegetarian world'
Author: Frauke Hertel

Link: COULD WHALES AND DOLPHINS GET LEGAL RIGHTS WITHIN OUR LIFETIMES?